Robson Sobral — 09:24 on 05.15.2012

I don’t think this is a good idea. One of the reason I changed from WordPress to EE is that a good CMS or framework or system can’t focus on professionals and dummies at the same time. WordPress annoys me because I have to recode, to disable a lot of things to do a good job, just because is to focused on be easy for dummies to implement.

And themes hurts the idea of custom fields. A lot of times I saw bad managed websites because their fields hierarchy and organization isn’t planned exact for them.

EE should focus on be easier for users to publish and to developers to code. Just this.

There are other ways to help increase EE market, like turn easier to import data and to create galleries, a cheaper license, a better performance, etc.

I believe EE should be “the choose of who make sites”: developers and designers.

Chris — 09:38 on 05.15.2012

I’m curious, do EE shops typically develop everything from scratch every time or do they have a handful a plain-vanilla templates with some generic custom fields to start from?

It would seem to be inefficient not to have a base to build from if you’re in the business of building EE sites.

Boyink — 09:38 on 05.15.2012

A few thoughts:

- Woo failed, for me, for two reasons: They created a Woo-branded area within the EE control panel which as a EE developer added one too many cooks in the kitchen for client sites (not to mention it obfuscated control over the theme elements that I’d rather just tweak using CSS).  Second (related) they seemed to be targeting the site owner using the Wordpress approach that’s worked so well for them.  If there is a theming market for EE I don’t think the target market is site owners but rather EE developers like myself.

- On your first point, while I’d agree custom code has been a focus it’s a bit of a circular argument, because there hasn’t been much for alternatives.  Personally I’ve built a small number of EE sites using themes created for other platforms (our own http://boyinks4adventure.com is a Woo theme built for WP but implemented on EE).

- On your second point, for me where a theme might work is the client who has a modest budget, but not enough to cover both a custom visual design and a EE build.  I’ve never felt that custom designs were a requirement for every business and given the choice between a custom design and client-manageable content I’ll choose the latter (and so have clients).  If I can buy EE, spend $50 on a theme and then have enough budget to 10-15 hours to tweak it to suit that lets me offer EE-based websites at a price point that I can’t currently do.

I’ve always felt there is a theming market for EE, but would define a theme as a default install/starting point/boilerplate/framework that I would spend a small amount of time customizing the visual aspect of the site (with client logos/colors etc) and also the EE install (tweaking content types, maybe installing add-ons that had a business case for this project).  I’d want the option to buy the theme developer out of having any promotional links anywhere in the theme.

With some theme creation and installation tools baked into EE it might open up entirely new channels of business - letting web development shops target vertical markets with a custom-themes making their money more on volume than markup.

Steven Grant — 09:56 on 05.15.2012

Good input Mike. You may know that myself and Ryan Downie are embarking on launching http://eethem.es this summer.

I think there is a market but it has to be native to EE. Like you said, Woo tried to bring a WP approach and they bailed because it wasn’t their platform.

I’ve been in the position where the client just wants a first site and doesn’t have the budget for a wholly customised solution, but wants to be able to control their content like you say.

Neil Evans / Nevsie — 10:00 on 05.15.2012

If a theme site is setup with an efficient importer for templates, channels, content, etc, etc, etc… Then yes it will achieve some success, but be limited by the cost of EE - as personally i believe the market for cheaper themes will be limited by the cost of EE and its add-ons.

If themes do take off, then i expect to see the market type for EE change. Or EE will change to a bigger market that supports themes and not be suitable for the existing people that use it.

For me - EE is by nature a framework for the site content.
If some one was to produce a design framework for EE that increased development time - yes this could sell, but this could never be a complete finished and polished theme.

I’ll be interested to see how PyroCMS handles this as with the increasing development of streams into the Core - themes will be developed with that in mind soon… worth a watch i guess..

nataliav — 10:06 on 05.15.2012

I think MojoMotor is more appropiate for themes, I’d love a theme marketplace around it.

I’m not interested in selling EE templates, but I agree with Boyink, I’d love to have more documentation on theming, to be able to build a basic starter theme instead of starting each project from scratch. I have some re-usable template files, but it’s mostly a copy and paste situation, I’d like to be able install EE with some channels, custom fields and templates already created.

Emma Walker — 10:07 on 05.15.2012

This is a great article and breakdown. Our team is actually building on this idea as well so this may well be the year that this takes off as Marcus tweeted. I think you’re assumption that most EE adopters come from a development background, and I agree. What’s great about that is that they’re not designers. As Mike pointed out, EE developers are taking inspiration from WP themes to build their sites. Why don’t we make that easier for them?

J — 10:19 on 05.15.2012

my 2 cents:

Personally, I like EE for its flexibility and for the fact that it enables front-end devs with small PHP/CI skills to build relatively complex websites and even small web apps. I believe the main market for EE has always been devs and shops and I hope it stays on that path. It’s a nice solution that sits right between a small blog engine / CMS like wordpress and frameworks like rails or django.

I would be quite disappointed if, because there is a new focus on theming, EE lost some of its flexibility, or if new features and improvements came out at a slower pace because it is tied to legacy themes.

I could see a market for EE themes for very small / basic websites (make money on volume), but IMHO these people are more likely to go for a free solution in terms of CMS. Maybe a nice option would be to bundle a few themes with EE (new license), or maybe people in the community will take on the job (seems it’s the case). Also, I always had a problem with cookie-cutter approaches like themes: for me, design is also problem solving and each project comes with its own set of problems to solve.

Jessica D'Amico — 10:33 on 05.15.2012

I’m not sure why the idea of themes has to spark a knee-jerk negative reaction. I think especially within certain niche markets with similar basic site needs, the opportunity for a themed “whole site solution” would be welcomed.

Increased exposure for EE and a larger market share mean more business for everyone, including add-on devs, as additional functionality (customizations, commerce, etc.) would be sure to follow.

I don’t believe providing certain types of simpler solutions means EE loses any flexibility or cachet - and it might convince those who feel overwhelmed by the concept of “EE is a framework” that it’s also an option for them.

Tyler Willingham — 10:45 on 05.15.2012

As Emma has stated were going to put some time and effort (therefor money) into trying this out. Themes at the very least can be incredibly helpful to newcomers to the CMS trying to get the hang of things. Additionally you don’t necessarily need to get rich off of selling themes. Making any money while helping raise awareness about the platform you use is a good thing. And you’re helping other people get off of the insufficient competing CMS’.

J — 11:17 on 05.15.2012

“I think especially within certain niche markets with similar basic site needs, the opportunity for a themed

Steven Grant — 11:28 on 05.15.2012

Yeah I think you’ve hit the nail on the head Jerome - the term theme immediately has WP connotations. I guess the clear distinction has to be made between a WP theme and EE ‘site framework’ - eethem.es was a much better domain though

Jessica D'Amico — 11:28 on 05.15.2012

“Maybe we should clearly define what a theme is if we want this discussion to be more productive? I would be interested in have Emma

Emma Walker — 11:34 on 05.15.2012

Jerome, I think Jessica is simply making that statement from what’s been observed in the EE community regarding this idea. It has for the most part been overwhelmingly negative. A lot has to do with this “get off my lawn” mentality that I see in the design and development communities.

I think you’re right that we need to define what a theme is before we can continue the discussion. I know that for our team, we’re not just looking at replicating what WooThemes, or other WP theme solution, is doing but rather diving into what makes EE unique and harnessing that in a well-packaged solution.

Tyler Willingham — 11:50 on 05.15.2012

From what I’ve seen an ExpressionEngine theme is just that. It’s more than just a drop in design. Typically it’s the basis of your installation. Channels, channel fields, templates and their groups, etc are all created around that initial installation so that the theme can be built out.

Now, having said that I can understand why there are many in the community that don’t like that approach. But all I can say to that is those aren’t going to be the people that work with the themes that get put out. While I will be on the side creating these themes we’re still going to be rolling out custom solutions for our clients as our main source of revenue.

Let’s think about developers looking to get into ExpressionEngine that might be coming from Wordpress: When you switch to a new platform some people want to see what’s out there so they look for themes. If you don’t see many themes available that might say to a lot of people that there isn’t much of a community. While that’s an ignorant assumption it’s a reality.

Beyond that when I got into EE development I had the benefit of an experienced ExpressionEngine developer graciously volunteering some of his time to help me out with my dumb questions. I was considering buying an EE theme just so that I didn’t have to bug him but pickings were slim. Sometimes solid documentation isn’t enough, newcomers need more and that’s where themes can be especially helpful.

Along with many people I’m not a fan of Wordpress. I love EE. I dropped all of my Wordpress work after I built my 2nd ExpressionEngine site. I love being able to show a client how easy it is to manage their site with EE and I enjoy being able to convert someone from WP and giving them that breath of fresh air that they need. Templates/themes whatever you want to call them can aid us in that. There’s still an initial cost with the license + the theme but in the long run it’s still a really inexpensive solution to get started on EE. Not to mention that a lot of those newcomers that aren’t experienced developers are going to be looking for people to assist them. That’s money in the communities pockets. Add-on developers too!

I understand why this is a heated discussion but if you don’t want to develop EE themes, don’t do it. Let those of us who are interested in the idea and willing to take the risk make the leap. If you like what you see then go ahead and join us.

The aim of this is not to dilute the community with a bunch of low-level crap. We love EE and the community as much as you do. So much that we want to see it grow and feel like more people deserve to experience a quality EExperience

Greg Aker — 12:12 on 05.15.2012

Typically, a master electrician does not use pre-bent conduit, why would someone who cares deeply about making amazing hand-crafted HTML/CSS and Javascript use a theme?  The master electrician takes immense pride in the bends being accurate to 1/16th of an inch or better even though most of the time no one will ever see it. Why not put the same care and pride in what you are creating?

It honestly makes me sad to see people charged thousands of dollars to have a theme installed/tweaked and then have that be passed off as a custom website solution. I just couldn’t do that to someone if I was telling them I was delivering them a custom solution.

I refuse to install things unless I absolutely need to, and then I highly scrutinize what I’m going to be using.  Are the features of this jQuery plugin “exactly” what I need, or should I roll my own?  Does this EE addon fit the bill, or am I better off writing something a bit more simple and lightweight, if I install Python package X, what external dependencies do I have to deal with?

For web professionals who take pride in their hand-crafted work, I see a “theme” as nothing more than their CSS reset at the top and javascript library of choice at the bottom of a single HTML document.  Maybe a couple of directories where their assets go. Ever looked at the source of a website built by Happy Cog? It looks like this is how they approach things.  Let’s be honest, even if Ryan Irelan works there, they are a company who’s excellence everyone should strive for.

Generally speaking, I don’t think it matters in the least what a website is made with. The important thing is the team’s mastery of user experience, design and the ability for a front end developer to make that experience come to life.

Casey — 12:14 on 05.15.2012

Spot on Tyler. Very well said!

Ryan Irelan — 12:17 on 05.15.2012

I don’t see themes as replacing the craftsmanship that goes into creating custom websites. But not everyone wants (or needs) that. It’s not either/or. It’s a completely different audience.

Not everyone wants a custom, handcrafted dining room table and chairs by the local master carpenter. They’re more than happy to go to Crate & Barrel and buy the same thing one million other people have in their homes.

Tyler Willingham — 12:22 on 05.15.2012

“Generally speaking, I don

Marcus Neto — 13:03 on 05.15.2012

I agree with what Ryan said a couple of comments above. This is not an either/or situation. This is a completely different and untapped market that is going to another CMS (mostly WP). Templates will go a long way to introducing EE to a market that right now is not aware that EE exists. Certainly this will be beneficial to the community as a whole.

Some more thoughts: http://marcusneto.com/main/comments/expressionengine_templates

Kenny Meyers — 14:48 on 05.15.2012

Zzzzz….

Seamus — 19:35 on 05.15.2012

Maybe “themes” is the wrong word to use. Code Packs are an awesome idea. I would love to make and see more front-end developer targeted starter packs for the more complicated add-ons (Friends, Membrr, CartThrob, etc) or specific markets (periodical, retail, authors, political, etc.), or specific tasks (appointment scheduling, project management, time tracking, etc.).

Even purely as a tool for education & learning, these could be amazing.

And as someone who develops fully custom sites with ExpressionEngine, I would really love for a lower-budget, “theme”, “plebeian” market to emerge. Many of those low-budget sites become higher-budget customers down the road. I’d gladly spend a few hours introducing someone to EE, and installing a theme that I knew was reliable, future-friendly and easy to replace/adjust in the future.

Float a few dozen of those boats down the river and one is sure to find their way to the sea of internet money.

Leevi Graham — 21:02 on 05.15.2012

For those of you attending EECI my presentation will be all about “themes”, “templates”, “code packs” and potential business models.

Bj — 03:35 on 05.16.2012

As I mentioned on twitter yesterday I think it’s a bit funny how provocative themes are to a lot of people in the EE community - as if bringing in themes will cheapen their work or something.

“We know how to set up EE sites - and we don’t want it to be easy!”

For the uninitiated I’m the guy who partnered with WooThemes to bring their themes to EE. I remember when Adii and the guys decided to call it quits (because of the lack of a market, yes) people in the EE community were practically applauding and saying good riddance.

Seriously, how does themes pose such a threat to your business?

I’m sorry, but if you don’t bring more to the table then what a theme will, then you’re not bringing a whole lot to the table to begin with.

Themes in general are not a threat to any of us discussing here.

Themes are great for those people who need to work their asses off and hustle “freelance job sites” and take on jobs for $450. Job-listings most of us only see flying by as a joke in our Twitter stream. “Ha ha, that’s funny - no one will do that for that price.” You know what, someone will. Let them - those clients were never for you anyway.

And themes are great for someone like Boyink who just want to throw something up quickly for his brother’s law business, because he doesn’t want to spend too much time on it when he could be charging clients $XXX/hour instead.

And they’re probably great for many other reasons like an entry into the EE sphere and getting up and running quickly with EE. More themes = more people using EE = more people in the community = more license-money for EllisLab = more money for addon developers = more work and more money in general. To sum it up: Mo’ money!

What people need to understand is that the theme market is an entirely different market which is not catered to without themes. This is not a “X is stealing our jobs”-kinda situation.

Neil Evans / Nevsie — 05:44 on 05.16.2012

Perhaps i am seeing this from a different perspective. I was not approaching this topic on the basis of what is good for me - i was approaching this topic with what i feel is good for EE going forward, and what will benefit developers and make for a better web.

Yes Themes make is easier for numerous people to get sites up quickly and this has a market and someone can earn out of it. Yes it will bring more people into EE. But those people that are brought in will not understand how it works, will not understand how EE works, will not understand the consequences of decisions made in the theme, nor will they really be buying add-ons (they will just work with prepackaged bits and bobs, or generic fields).

To me this is like like giving a a child a super powered motorcycle, and showing them how the throttle works, and sending them on their way. They have no idea what they are getting into and what damage they can do and cause.

So in short - yes there is a market and money to be made. Lots of people can line their pockets. But ethically in terms of business this is not how i would operate - i.e. selling a tool that do not understand, to a client who does not understand. I encourage education, well thought out ideas and methods, and proving something i and the client will be proud to use. Unfortunately, this will only be a tiny part of the themes market, the rest will end up like Joomla sites, with bad habits, and inundated support.

Remember the people being quizzed here are professionals who want the best for their own businesses and clients. That is why the responses you are getting are negative. If you want positive responses then hit up people who fit the theme market (people who do not mind their site looking like 100’s of others!)

To my original point and one made by many others in the above. Some design tools/frameworks to give a better starting point, and perhaps even a easy auto installer of demo content is of value - it a starting point, good education, and worthwhile.

We’ll see, it will work, people will make money, other craftsmen will continue as they currently are. But will the web be better for it?

Damien Buckley — 06:25 on 05.16.2012

I’m going to go against the wind here and state clearly that I think themes have no place in the EE market. I cant agree with Robson enough.

Although I understand what others have said regards it being a different market, I think theming simply cheapens the product and makes it harder to promote as a pro product. EE carries a lot of cachet as a pro system. You can kiss this reputation goodbye along with your opportunities to sell decent sites as soon as ‘cheapest EE themes’ hits page 1 of Google

MIke — 08:28 on 05.16.2012

Can we define what a “theme” is before arguing about whether it’s right for EE or not?

Mike — 08:31 on 05.16.2012

And I just realized I skipped some comments and my questions was already brought up…

Robson — 08:56 on 05.16.2012

After read Marcus post, I calm down. Since isn’t an iniciative of EllisLab, there’s no risk of change the focus of the product or to invest time of development and support on themes.
In reply to Damian, in my experience, I didn’t see this happenig to systems, but to professionals. Every time I saw a client asking me or some colleage of mine for a cheaper solution, was just this: one cheaper solution. When came the time for the more expensive solution, they called someone else. They never came back. Small jobs can be turned into big jobs further. Cheap jobs? I never saw this happen.

“Hey, it’s time to really improve our site! Let call that guys who did that amazing site for…”

They associate who made the cheap site to cheap jobs and go away. Well, this is what I saw. I hope I’m wrong about this.

But, as I said, since this isn’t a iniciative of EllisLab, I’m fine.

Greg Ferrell — 10:51 on 05.16.2012

Sell themes. If they don’t do well, the question is answered for us all.

I just personally wouldn’t bet my life savings on it being a huge success.

Bj — 04:18 on 05.17.2012

Damien: I could use that exact same logic to go on about how addons are bad for my business.

“I’ve seen this happen before. Designers had to come to me to get facebook login enabled websites, but after that social login addon was released do you think they came back? No.”

Addons enable designers to create websites with advanced functionality that they were not able to before - they’d need my help to do so. In fact, using this logic, addons in general - and even EE would be bad for my business as a PHP developer - before I’d be asked to write a control panel from scratch! Think about the hours I would bill.

Yet, I fill my days with client work so this doesn’t seem to really be an issue.

Most likely because I don’t exclusively focus on social login functionality for EE.

Damien Buckley — 04:33 on 05.17.2012

Bjorn - you’re entitled to your opinion and I mine.

I dont disagree with your analogy.

I am speaking purely form my own experience over the last 8 years and this is what I found. Where a system became heavily theme orientated, the perceived value and professionalism of the system was lower. Selling custom-built websites on that platform simply became unviable.

You dont have to accept what I say - thats fine, but it doesn’t change the facts as I see them.  I just dont see ANY benefit to the EE community as a whole from themes etc. If you do, please share it.

Thankfully this is not an EllisLab initiative so I’m not overly concerned at this stage and at the end of the day, there are other CMS’ to use if EE becomes polluted with themes like Joomla, Wordpress etc. It would be nice to see it not go that way though.

movers Seattle WA — 15:18 on 04.22.2013

You really make it appear really easy with your presentation but I find
this matter to be really one thing which I feel I might by no means understand.
It seems too complex and very vast for me.
I am looking forward for your next publish, I’ll try to get the dangle of it!

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